Mystery - the main PC on my Home Net makes the ADSL line drop when it starts up!

[Rik]

It looks like a classic profile issue, Les, we really need you to do a BT test (as will IDNet before they can do anything to help you).

[LesD]

Les, we really need you to do a BT test (as will IDNet before they can do anything to help you).

Hi Rik,
You were absolutely right on that score.
IDNet Support have been first class a reply complete with a line test virtually as soon as they opened my email.
Support want me to run the BT speed test with my direct connetion to the BT master Socket but I will try it first wired as I am through my extension wiring because like this I have a connection speed of 4256 kbps assuming that the line stays connected until I get home, which I am optimistic that it will.

Something odd happened at about 7:18 PM last evening as you can see below. This was round the time I was moving the connection from my internal extension wiring to my direct CAT5 cable connection. I thought I had been careful to turn the router off at the switch on the mains socket before I started but now with my advancing years I do wonder if I did do everything in the right order! 

This is what Support tell me this morning:

A full line test shows no fault condition, what I have noticed over the past few days is the dynamic line management hasn't been able to settle at all.

Here is a record of the DLM on your line over the past few days;
Headline Rate Downstream LineRate    Downstream LineRate Timestamp    Maximum Stable Rate
135   2008-02-20T19:18:50   2848
135   2008-02-20T19:18:50   2848
135   2008-02-20T19:18:50   2848
3000   2008-02-19T18:24:51   2848
3000   2008-02-19T18:24:51   2848
3500   2008-02-17T17:59:55   2848
3500   2008-02-17T17:59:55   2848
2000   2008-02-16T09:42:50   2848
2000   2008-02-16T09:42:50   2848
2000   2008-02-16T09:42:50   2848
2500   2008-02-13T19:36:50   2848
2500   2008-02-13T19:36:50   2848
2500   2008-02-13T19:36:50   2848
3000   2008-01-28T19:12:08   2848

There was a low sync event on the line around 7pm yesterday as you can see, and because the external tests are showing no faults it's likely local interference which has caused this.
What I would suggest is connecting your equipment to the test port of the master socket and running a BT speedtest to see if the downstream line rate shows any improvement. If it does, I would suggest checking/changing the equipment and or wiring.

Hope this helps

[Rik]

It fits with what we're seeing, Les, you've got a yo yo of a profile there.

[LesD]

I have just sent this reply to IDNet support: 

Thanks for the exceptionally fast reply, certainly something I would not have had with my last ISP!

OK I have done a BT speed test at 5:04PM  21/2/8 and this is the result:

The Performance Tester is now testing Broadband connection. Your configured download throughput speed for this service is 135 k

Please do not move away from this page and do not start any other download activity on your computer.

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    IP profile for your line is - 135 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)  4256 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 107 kbps

If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.

If you are experiencing problems with specific applications, servers or websites please contact your ISP for assistance.

Your test has completed please close this window to exit the performance tester.

I think I know what caused the low syncs. I had problems with EMI for the PSU in my PC and the guys on the forum help me pinpoint the problem and I having changed the PSU the stability of my ADSL line had improved. Having temporarily repositioned my router with things working relatively well I decided to tidy things up a bit!! In the process I plugged the Netgear "Wall wart" power supply uniy into a multibock with a number of the "Wall Warts" in it already. A subsequent transistor radio test reveals that at least the one for the remote base units the one for my "DEC" telephone emits a load of EMI too! I know already that my Netgear router does not like EMI so I am pretty sure it was with it plugged into this multiblock that I have these dire connection speed. When I realised what had happened I moved it away as far as I could on another extension cable and can sync, as you will see in the BT test results above, at 4256 kbps. I guess my IP Profile is locked down now at this very low level for some number of days until BT decide I have suffered enough!

Maybe things don't look quite so bleak for my Netgear router after all.

[Rik]

Looks good, Les, keep us posted

[Sebby]

It's certainly looking better, Les. Let's hope it stays that way.

Your profile is 135k, so unless IDNet get it manually reset, things are going to be mightily slow for the next few days until it resets!

[Lance]

Seeing it is quite a large jump on the sync, it should hopefully increase over the next day or two. The bigger the jump, the quicker it is.

[Rik]

It's worth mentioning that BT wouldn't let IDNet request a reset until their normal processes had completed.

[LesD]

things are going to be mightily slow

Hi Sebby,
Tell me about it!

Here's what the Netgear stats are saying a minute or so ago:

System Up Time 12:09:09

Port   Status   TxPkts   RxPkts   Collisions   Tx B/s   Rx B/s   Up Time     
WAN   PPPoA   4710   10060   0   26   90   12:08:37     
LAN   10M/100M   10757   8501   0   142   42   12:09:05   
 
ADSL Link   Downstream   Upstream     
Connection Speed   4256 kbps   448 kbps     
Line Attenuation   40 db                13 db     
Noise Margin   4 db                19 db   

The downstream noise margins down but I guess that's an evening thing from what you were saying.

My suspicion is that if I were to try and re-connect now the Connection Speed would be lower so I am leaving well alone tonight.  With   that my Netgrear router is OK.

[Rik]

You're right, Les, a re-boot now would almost certainly see a reduction in sync speed, and multiple re-syncs will just cause the profile to stay lower longer.

[LesD]

You're right, Les, a re-boot now would almost certainly see a reduction in sync speed, and multiple re-syncs will just cause the profile to stay lower longer.

Hi Rik, Thank for the confirmation of my suspicion.
I can wait a couple more days, hey I'm ex-Tiscali, the likes of me are at home with dire peak time speeds and bouyed up by what Lance said it may be quicker!

Then I have to try again the routers sat on a box right next to my feet and it can't stay there indefinitely! 

[Rik]

It'll help keep your feet warm, Les. When you disconnect, pull the mains plug and let the voltage die away. This sends a signal to the exchange so that it doesn't see the disconnection as instability.

[Sebby]

The downstream noise margins down but I guess that's an evening thing from what you were saying.

My suspicion is that if I were to try and re-connect now the Connection Speed would be lower so I am leaving well alone tonight.  With   that my Netgrear router is OK.

Yes, but 4dB at night on a Netgear is pretty decent, and shouldn't cause you any problems.

You could re-sync now, which would cause your sync to drop slightly, though would give you a higher margin. But, I'd say don't bother as hopefully things will stay stable as they are.

[LesD]

I'd say don't bother as hopefully things will stay stable as they are.

I took the advice and here I am still stuck with an IP Profile of 135 kbps but the time is slowly but surely clocking up with a stable connection! 



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[Lance]

Hopefully you will see an increase soon!

[Sebby]

The most important thing is stability, which is looks like you've finally got! The profile will clear in a couple of days, honest.

[plugwash]

Now is the new PSU faulty?

Faulty probablly isn't the right word for it. It is almost certainly not compliant with the EMC directive though.

Buying cheap PSUs just isn't worth it IMO, they will almost certainly be noisy (probablly noiser than the EMC directive permits, at best borderline), they are unlikely to be reliable and when PSUs fail they sometimes take other far more valuable components with them.

[Rik]

I agree with you there, a PSU can fry a lot of expensive kit when it decides to give out.

[LesD]

Hopefully you will see an increase soon!

The most important thing is stability, which is looks like you've finally got! The profile will clear in a couple of days, honest.

Hi Guys,

No time off for good behaviour so.

BT still have me in jail - Test at 8:50 AM  23/2/8

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    IP profile for your line is - 135 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)  4256 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 91 kbps

[LesD]

Faulty probablly isn't the right word for it. It is almost certainly not compliant with the EMC directive though.

Buying cheap PSUs just isn't worth it IMO, they will almost certainly be noisy (probablly noiser than the EMC directive permits, at best borderline), they are unlikely to be reliable and when PSUs fail they sometimes take other far more valuable components with them.

Hi Pugwash,

I know you are right but I didn't buy the cheapest one available but apparently not expensive enough!
This was the one I bought:
http://www.microdirect.co.uk/(12394)650W-Silent-ATX-PSU-SATA-cable-12cm-fan-24-pin.aspx
The make I received was Win Power. Having already been told that I would be liable to pay for postage and the testing MicroDirect do if their tests deemed that the PSU was in working order, which my bet is it would as it does power a PC, the final thing MicroDirect said was this:
"Due to the amount of varied components, available today Micro Direct is unfortunately unable to guarantee compatibility between items sold. It is customer's responsibility to ensure compatibility of any goods offered for sale by us both with the existing components within your system and with any other goods offered for sale by us". 

I had an RMA from them by this time but have decided not to bother.

I work in a laboratory complex, one which is UKAS accredited for EMC testing and the guys there told me the particular Directive to quote to MicroDirect but that was just like water off a duck's back. My colleagues reckon they get round the letter of the law of these Directives because as such the PSU is a component in a bigger system and it is the whole system that is subject to the Directive. Well since I built this PC up from various bits I bought does that make me the manufacturer and hence liable under the Directives for the EMC it generates. I know I suffer from verbal diarrhoea so I had spared the forum from this debarkle until just now.

Since you have me on the subject what PSU should I buy? 

I saw a Trust one that was more expensive if this is indeed an indicator and asked Trust how much EMI/RFI it generated and this was the second answer I received

Dear Customer,

This data is not available to us.

Kind regards,
XXXX YYYY
Trust Customer Care

Ths first one re-iterated the aucoustic noise levels that were in the specification that I had already seen.

One PSU that is an arm and a leg more expensive is an Enermax one with good details here that do address EMI:

http://www.afterhours.co.uk/enermax-liberty-500w-psu-p-1465.html?utm_campaign=froogle&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=froogle

(Amazon do it too but the spec. they give is less detailed)

I have also considered filters. You can get filtered Multi-blocks, switched filters from RS, who do show the circuits but they look asymmetric so do they only work efficiently for noise in one direction? As an electrical engineer I should know but at my age filter design is way back in my recollectoins in the very bowells of my memory so with all the young fresh minds out there, what should I do, I say what should I do? 

So what's the concensus of opinion on what I should do next?

[LesD]

 Whoops! How do you delete a post made in error? 

Well if you can always turn a blemish into a feature so in an effort to redeem my first erroneous post I will ask a question. Will a router reboot/ADSL line reconnection be necessary when BT finally let me out of jail and give be a better IP Profile? I don't think it will but whilst sat here waiting there is plenty of time to ask! 

[Rik]

No time off for good behaviour so.

BT still have me in jail - Test at 8:50 AM  23/2/8

Given the recent history of the line, I suspect it may take the full five days for the profile to reset.

[Rik]

Whoops! How do you delete a post made in error? 

Ask a staff member...

Well if you can always turn a blemish into a feature so in an effort to redeem my first erroneous post I will ask a question. Will a router reboot/ADSL line reconnection be necessary when BT finally let me out of jail and give be a better IP Profile? I don't think it will but whilst sat here waiting there is plenty of time to ask! 

No, the profile lifts without a re-sync being necessary.

[Rik]

So what's the concensus of opinion on what I should do next?

Can you get the PSU tested in your lab? If so, contact Trading Standards with the result, I'm sure they'd be interested in ensuring the relevant directives were met.

[LesD]

Can you get the PSU tested in your lab?

Hi Rik,

Thanks for all the latest answers. Regarding the bit I have quoted above, "a packet of fags job"    from days gone by. This possibility is on the cards but it's the "component versus the system" concept that may make going to these lengths not worth the candle.   

There would be some satisfaction though if a recall of all suspect units could be enforced!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards,

Les.

P.S. Hey 5 days that's Monday!  I missed that first time round!
Here I am looking for remission for good behaviour not extra time to serve!